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Over 20k unauthorized transaction on my checking account with TD bank

Hello Reddit,
This is my first time creating a post ever here, and I am desperately looking for help to resolve the issue and advice. My hands are still shaky and I had to call in sick for work 2 days in a row.
Last morning, I got a text message from TD multiple times for fraud alert amount of $500, $600, and $1100. I do not check my bank account as often as I used to since this whole pandemic as I am just working from home basically without much spending.
Anyhow, I logged into my bank account and I see approximately 20k worth of unauthorized transactions (a lot of transactions) for the past 3 weeks on my checking account. TD managed to notify me after all these transactions. I called TD, and they froze the card and I went into branch today to get a replaced debit card.
Apparently majority of transactions were for "online gambling" website based in overseas. I have no clue whether it is legal or illegal to do online gambling in Canada, Ontario but someone used my debit visa card to fund the gambling website(s). The representative did flag all the transactions for disputation, and was told to wait up to 30 days to hear back from them.
I did make police report as well regarding this, and an officer will reach out to me next week to discuss further. Once I get the case #, I am planning to give the case # to bank as well.
My question is.. is there anything else I need to do other than just waiting? This is very frustrating and concerning at the same time that my account is not safe at all and someone could just easily use my card like that.
I do not care whether they catch the person, but I need to know for sure that I get my money back. The rep says that I will get my money back don't worry but according to many cases that are shared online, many got declined for their disputed cases. I am worried sick!
If anyone has an input regarding this, please spare a minute and share with me. Any insights will be very much appreciated.
Thank you all for reading and stay safe!
submitted by ceramiccoated to PersonalFinanceCanada [link] [comments]

[CANADA - ONTARIO] I think my bookie (sports betting) has been cheating me

Just finished typing everything and it's a bit messy so if anything seems confusing please ask me for clarification. Thanks.
Yes I know, the title sounds like the case of a gambler going sour. Please hear me out before judging.
The story:
For the past 10 months I've been sports betting with a bookie. He has various sites set up online and extends me credit which I pay off weekly when I lose. I have not won a single week in the past 10 months. I have paid him on time (with the exception of once being a day late) every single time. A few months ago he said that he can no longer do credit and I would have to deposit with him directly. At this point I could've just gone to bodog or another online sportsbook but my issue was that they take a long time to pay out and since they also have casino games I didn't trust myself to not go and play virtual blackjack or something. Anyway, in the last 10 months I have paid my bookie close to $30000 through cash and interac e-transfers (email money transfer). A few weeks ago I had deposited $5000 with him and he locked my account saying he was cutting me off cause he didn't want me to keep losing money. It was a bit annoying but whatever, it's probably for the best. Like I said, I haven't won a single week in over 10 months. My account had a small balance of $600 so I expected him to settle that with me on the settlement date. He said that he would EMT me the $600 the day after he had closed my account but he didn't, I didn't really care. Well the settlement date came and passed. It has been 3 weeks now and I have not received my $600 back. This isn't even winnings, it's money I deposited with him which was still in my account when he locked it "for my benefit". He is constantly ignoring my texts and calls and when he does reply he gives me false promises or excuses about paying me that day or in a few days but each deadline has come and past. It has been 4 settlement dates since I should've received my money back.
My concern:
So here's what I'm thinking now. I have never won a single week so if he can't even send me back the $600 that I paid him in advance as a deposit, if I had won and he owed me money, would he have even paid that? Have I just been taken for a ride where he realized I'm never going to win so had no intention of ever paying me? Even if that's the case, why not just pay me back the $600 so I'm less suspicious about the $30000 I have paid him? I am suspicious that he has simply been gambling with the money I have been sending him and had no intentions of ever paying me if I had won. When I bring up this concern to him he keeps saying it's such a small amount that's why he didn't give it much thought and is busy dealing with people who have larger wins. Seems like a load of bs to me. He said he is going to EMT me the money today 100% (originally he said before 6pm which is in an hour but has now changed it to "by today"). I don't really have any faith in this.
My question:
I know that bookmaking is illegal, I'm not sure however if participating in it is illegal though. I called my bank about reversing the e-transfers I've sent him and they said they can't guarantee reversing them but regardless I would have to file a police report. If I am honest in the police report regarding this would I get in trouble? A representative from my bank told me that likely my only course of action is going to be taking him to small claims court over this amount (I didn't tell them it was gambling related) and the e-transfers likely wouldn't be reversed. Do I have any recourse in this or is this essentially the same as someone robbing illegal drugs from me?
I have my bookie's full name and address (picture of his drivers license).
Even if he pays me back this $600 at this point I feel as though he's just been buying time to get it to pay me.
Oh, I should note that my friend deposited $700 with this bookie 7 months ago and 3 weeks later withdrew $700 with no issues whatsoever.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Remember when Ray Whitney was "controversial", with a brilliant GM named Don Waddell fueling it? A look back at one of hockey's more interesting episodes.

(This is taken from my own history and analysis site, NathanGabay.com).
I’ve sometimes wondered about what it would be like to be a genie, partially because I can be annoying and partially because I can be overly pedantic. The result would be that someone would free me from a lamp and wish for something, not realizing that I would find more ways than thought possible to mess with that person. Wish for a million bucks? Here you go, one million male deer. Or one million Zimbabwean dollars. Or one million American dollars, all in pennies and stacked in a pile the size of a mansion. Or one million American dollars, all in large bills in a briefcase in the back seat of your car…which happens to be unlocked and in plain sight.
Or maybe you don’t want money, maybe you’d just prefer to fly. In that case, you can only fly at 1 MPH. And if you want to fly at a normal speed, you have to be in a fully reclined position like on a luge. And you’re still subject to whatever the temperature is at the altitude that you’re flying, as well as the oxygen content of the air. No sir, no homeostatic bubbles for your flying pleasure.
By the time that my hapless lamp-finder had thought of all contingency plans for how I could mess with them, a single wish would be a contract 50 pages long and single-spaced. And I’d still find a loophole to continue to annoy them with.
When it comes to a contract, it’s as much about what’s in there as what’s not in there. And this brings us to the unique and strange case of Ray Whitney and Don Waddell, which featured a creative “little guy” taking on the much larger and much more powerful interests.
Ray Whitney was a 2nd-round pick of the San Jose Sharks (#23 overall) in the 1991 Entry Draft, which was his second year of draft eligibility. In the preceding two seasons with Spokane of the WHL, he’d scored 114 goals and 298 points, and in the most recent WHL playoffs had added 13 goals and 31 points in 15 games. Then in the Memorial Cup, he added another 5 goals and 11 points in the four games of the tournament, en route to a Spokane championship.
Whitney also stood approximately 5’8″ at the time and was of slight build, which is how he’d drawn so little NHL attention to that point. There was also a thought that he was simply riding shotgun with his Spokane linemate Pat Falloon, and that his point totals could be inflated based on that. That’s why Whitney was the #95-ranked North American skater going into the 1991 draft, and the Sharks took him about four rounds earlier than expected.
The two sides could not agree on a contract, possibly over whether Whitney would be starting 1991-92 in the NHL or back in Spokane. At the time, there was a strict deadline that if a junior player was not signed by October of his draft year, he could not be signed during that season at all. And if he still had junior eligibility remaining when he signed an NHL contract, his only options were the NHL or his junior team. Whitney signed with the Cologne Sharks of the German League rather than with San Jose, allowing him to make six figures rather than a few hundred dollars in the WHL. He had 9 points in 10 games with Cologne, but a dispute over payments – in which Whitney said that he hadn’t been paid at all after two full months – led him back to North America. And the firestorm was about to begin.
The International Hockey League was a 10-team league in 1991-92, with eight of those teams being direct affiliates with an NHL team and two being independent. Of the major players in this saga, the Kansas City Blades were affiliates of San Jose, and the San Diego Gulls were independent.
I’ve seen differing accounts of who made first contact. All that is known for certain is that around November 10, 1991, there was a discussion between Gulls’ GM/coach Don Waddell and Whitney’s agent (Mike Barnett) over the possibility of Whitney playing the remainder of that season with the Gulls. This was despite the fact that it would mean competing directly against the affiliate of the team that had drafted him just five months prior.
Whitney played his first game with the Gulls on November 15, and had a goal and an assist.
Whitney couldn’t sign with San Jose because the NHL has a rule that no players eligible to play Junior Hockey may sign with an NHL team after the NHL season begins. That also precluded Whitney from signing with any IHL team affiliated with an NHL team.
Since San Diego is an independent, Whitney was eligible to sign here.
“We own his contract,” Waddell said. “San Jose has his NHL rights.”
Zieralski, Ed. “Infusion of young talent helps Gulls skate circles around Roadrunners.” Evening Tribune (San Diego, CA) 16 Nov. 1991, Sports: C-3
If Whitney’s arrival in San Diego was under the radar when he first came back over from Germany, it was about to get a lot bigger.
Gulling situation: The San Diego Gulls have caused an uproar between the National Hockey League and junior hockey leagues and put the IHL on the spot with the surprise signing of junior hockey prospect Ray Whitney.
Whitney scored 67 goals and 118 assists in 72 games for Spokane of the Western Hockey League last season. Whitney, San Jose’s No. 2 pick, was sent back to his junior team last fall. NHL sources say he didn’t want to go, so he forced a release from that team and went to Europe. But when his European team defaulted on its contract, Whitney signed with the Gulls.
That is an unprecedented move. It violates an agreement between the NHL and junior hockey, by which a player with junior eligibility must play with his NHL team or be returned to the junior team. The Gulls are not bound by the mandate because they are one of the IHL’s two independent teams.
“I think the IHL should not allow Whitney to play,” Blues general manager Ron Caron said. “It’s a violation, and I would think the IHL would want to obey our rules, considering how many NHL parent clubs operate in it.”
Further, San Jose now must watch Whitney play all season against its own IHL farm team, Kansas City. The Sharks can’t sign Whitney for the NHL roster, either – the NHL deadline for signing junior players passed in October.
“Whitney is for real – he’s an NHLer,” Philadelphia Flyers scout Glen Sonmor said. “In the IHL, he’ll probably be Rookie of the Year.”
Eminian, Dave. “Rivermen Get Lavoie From Blues – More Help May Arrive Soon.” Journal Star (Peoria, IL) 19 Nov. 1991, Sports: D1.
The obvious solution would be for Kansas City to acquire Whitney in a trade, despite the fact that the Blades were the affiliate of the Sharks and the NHL guidelines (possibly) forbade it. At the heart of this matter was whether this meant that Whitney could not play for the Blades at all that season, or whether it meant that he could not sign and be assigned there. If the former was the case, no trade could be made. If the latter, then it meant that another team could sign him and then trade him to Kansas City.
(As a side note, I really don’t have a hell of a lot of tolerance for Ron Caron’s bitching in this case. The Blues were trying to force their way into the status of NHL contenders by throwing around money in free agency like it was candy, they’d been hit hard in the Shanahan/Stevens arbitration case, and Caron whined to the media about it for the better part of a year. He was referred to as a “renegade” and a “maverick” within the media for trying to find unconventional ways to bolster his team, he was unapologetic about his aggression and willingness to be creative, and here he is in this case raising hell about someone else doing exactly the same thing that he couldn’t have done even if he’d tried. Spare me, Professor.)
The Blades appear near a trade that would bring former Canadian juniors star and controversial center Ray Whitney to Kansas City, a source close to the negotiations said Wednesday.
The source, who requested anonymity because of his closeness to the situation, said the trade involving Whitney, who recently signed with the IHL’s independent San Diego Gulls, could happen within the next two weeks.
Flanagan, Jeffrey. “Blades want to trade for San Jose draftee. Second-round pick spurned Sharks, is with San Diego team in IHL..” The Kansas City Star 21 Nov. 1991, Sports: D1
Check the date on that. In less than seven days, Whitney had gone from not playing an IHL game at all to playing two and being the subject of controversy and trade talks.
Later on in the same article:
Spokane officials, meanwhile, have indicated to Whitney’s agent, Michael Barnett, that they believe they retain rights to Whitney, who is 19 and has one year of juniors eligibility remaining.
But the IHL does not have restrictions regarding the signing of Canadian juniors with eligibility remaining, a loophole that led Barnett and Whitney to sign a minor-league deal with the Gulls.
It is possible Spokane may contest Whitney’s signing with San Diego in the form of litigation.
To contest the signing would require Spokane seeking injunctive relief against San Diego and Whitney. In very brief terms, an injunction is a court order to do or not do “something”. What exactly “something” is can take on a limitless number of forms. If Spokane sought a temporary injunction against Whitney playing for San Diego and it was granted, it would mean that a court was issuing an order that Whitney was not allowed to play for San Diego until the matter was formally resolved in a court case.
In this case, Whitney continuing to play for San Diego would mean that both he and the team would be in violation of a court order, which is a really bad idea. That’s if Spokane sought and obtained an injunction.
While this threat was being bandied about, trade talks between San Diego and Kansas City were reportedly building.
The proposed trade that would bring former Canadian juniors star Ray Whitney to the Blades has been blocked momentarily by the NHL.
The issue will be addressed Dec. 16 at an NHL’s Board of Governors meeting in Florida.
…
The Blades have a deal worked out with the Gulls for Whitney, pending the NHL’s ruling.
Flanagan, Jeffrey. “Blades waiting for word on deal – Whitney trade has been temporarily stopped by league.” The Kansas City Star 5 Dec. 1991, Sports: D6
At this point, the report is clearly that a trade had been reached between the two sides, which would resolve the saga once the NHL ruled on the application of the rule.
Signing with the NHL was out because NHL teams are prohibited from signing young players who have Canadian juniors eligibility remaining once the NHL season begins.
That rule, as it stands now, also extends to the NHL affiliates in the minors, so if Whitney wanted to play minor league hockey this season, it had to be with an independent.
Enter Don Waddell, general manager and head coach of the independent Gulls. While Kansas City general manager Doug Soetaert was trying to figure out a way to sign Whitney, Waddell slipped the promising youngster into a Gulls uniform.
“Kansas City was waiting for a ruling, but I decided to move and sign him,” Waddell said. “I didn’t do anything illegal or immoral.”
Soetaert and the Blades still are waiting for that ruling from the NHL. But Soetaert said the Blades aren’t sore about Waddell taking Whitney.
“We’re sitting in first place without him,” Soettart [sic] said. “It’s just that I was talking to his agent prior to his signing with San Diego. I was trying to negotiate with him. But then he pulled the pin, and Ray signed with San Diego.
“As everyone is well aware of, he is the draft choice of the San Jose Sharks organization. It would be kind of nice to have him here in Kansas City.”
If Soetaert gets NHL approval, Whitney still may play in Kansas City this year. He and Waddell have discussed trade possibilities, but they have not been able to agree on terms.
Zieralski, Ed. “Does he know way to San Jose?.” Evening Tribune (San Diego, CA) 6 Dec. 1991, Sports: D-9.
A week later, it was still going on, although the days waiting for an NHL ruling were ticking down.
But after contract talks with the Sharks stalled, Whitney fled to play in Europe, then joined the Canadian Olympic team. After that he signed with San Diego, where he has been stuck in the middle of a controversial, legal-rights taffy pull.
Spokane still believes it has the rights to Whitney, and while the Sharks still own the NHL rights to him, they can’t sign him because it is long past the Oct. 5 deadline NHL teams can sign junior players with eligibility remaining.
Enter the Blades, who’ve had a deal pending with the Gulls for Whitney for weeks, while waiting for the NHL owners to meet and decide whether the trade can be made.
Flanagan, Jeffrey. “Blades see star up close Gulls’ Whitney – still waiting to find out if he’ll join KC..” The Kansas City Star 13 Dec. 1991, Sports: D3.
As things continued to build, Waddell, probably tired of hearing about it, denied that trade talks had taken place at all.
Because of rules concerning Canadian juniors, no NHL team or NHL affiliate could sign Whitney once the season began — leaving the door open for the independent Gulls. But the Blades, the Sharks’ affiliate, continue to give paper chase.
“Whitney belongs to the Gulls, period,” Gulls Coach/General Manager Don Waddell said last night. “There have been no trade talks.”
“Whitney scores 3 as Gulls win, 5-1.” San Diego Union, The (CA) 15 Dec. 1991, Sports: H-8.
At the same time, Blades center Ron Handy publicly said that he was part of the trade discussions that may or may not have been taking place at all. Handy had previously played with the Peoria Rivermen, also of the IHL, and the article that detailed this also underscored more issues with the Whitney signing from Peoria’s parent team (the St. Louis Blues).
Whitney, the second player chosen in the draft by the NHL expansion San Jose Sharks, is a player still eligible for junior programs. But he left his junior team this fall, played briefly in Germany and then signed with the Gulls.
The Gulls’ signing sparked some protest in NHL circles because, by rule, Whitney should have to return to his junior program, play for an amateur team or sit out the season.
But the Gulls, who are one of three independent pro teams, can operate as outlaws because they are not owned by or affiliated with an NHL team.
But Whitney’s presence on Kansas City’s roster – the Blades are the farm team of San Jose – would be viewed as a break in the NHL ranks.
“It would be a mockery of the system, a defiance of the rules,” St. Louis Blues director of minor league operations Bob Plager said. “What’s to stop a mass raid on junior programs then? The Blues could – and maybe will – go out and sign a big-time junior kid and put him in Peoria. I would be inclined to recommend that.
“We should go after Eric Lindros. What’s to stop us from offering him a large sum of money to play under an IHL contract in Peoria?”
Handy, who came out of retirement to sign with Kansas City on Nov. 27, says he figures he was obtained to be offered as trade bait.
Eminian, Dave. “Handy May Be Center of IHL Debate -Ex-Rivermen Star Says KC May Trade Him For Junior-Eligible Player.” Journal Star (Peoria, IL) 17 Dec. 1991, Sports: D5
An interesting side note is that Plager’s mocking suggestion of offering a huge contract for Eric Lindros was in fact something that could be done by an IHL team. Would anyone consider such a drastic move?
As time ticked on, what reporter Jeffrey Flanagan referred to as a “legal-rights taffy pull” continued on. But through it all, Whitney kept producing. He was named to the IHL All-Star Game, which in itself had a minor controversy. Waddell was named coach of the Western team, which gave him the right to fill out the roster. To do so, he polled the various coaches to see who should be named to the team. He called Peoria coach Harold Snepsts, who suggested three different players from his team as viable options for the All-Star team.
Waddell ignored the suggestions completely and went with Peoria defenseman Dominic Lavoie, who had played only 16 games in the IHL that year out of a possible 38. Whether this was done, as Waddell said, because Lavoie would be an All-Star if not for injury, or because Waddell felt like giving a bit of annoyance back to Peoria after their outspoken opposition to him having signed Ray Whitney, is unknown.
In the same article about Lavoie’s selection, this bit was included:
Gulls coach Don Waddell, on whether he’s talked with Kansas City about trading to the Blades junior-eligible all- star center Ray Whitney (14 goals, 13 assists, 19 games): “I admit there has been some trade talk with Kansas City about Whitney. But I have not talked to them – well, what I mean is I haven’t called them, they’ve called me. There are some holes on my team I’d like to fill, and I’ve made it clear that there isn’t a player on my team I wouldn’t trade.”
Eminian, Dave. “Lavoie Counts His Lucky Stars – Rivermen Defenseman Happy IHL All-Star.” Journal Star (Peoria, IL) 7 Jan. 1992, Sports: D1.
If you’re paying extremely close attention to the dates on the articles, you’ll notice that this is now three weeks after the NHL’s board meeting on December 16 that was supposed to include a ruling on Whitney’s case.
But San Jose and Kansas City weren’t forsaking improving the Blades while waiting on the Whitney ruling.
The prospects are diminishing that center Ray Whitney will play in a Blades uniform this season, but the Blades have at least one more trick up their sleeve.
The Blades on Monday signed former San Jose draft pick Sandis Ozolinch to an International Hockey League contract.
Flanagan, Jeffrey. “Blades sign Sharks draftee; Blades notebook.” The Kansas City Star 21 Jan. 1992, Sports: C7.
I am not certain at what point Sandis Ozolinsh began to have his name spelled as such; I can verify that at least through the entirety of the 1991-92 season, it was spelled “Ozolinch”.
However, there is an interesting tidbit at the very end of the same article.
San Jose officials recently petitioned the NHL to allow the Blades to make the trade for Whitney. The Sharks have not yet heard back from the NHL’s legal office.
This was written on January 21. By now, over a month had passed since the NHL was supposed to issue a ruling on the Whitney case, and it had not been done.
Perhaps the Sharks weren’t as displeased as they initially were. After all, Whitney was playing against several NHL-caliber players and several others who had played in the NHL previously. He was teammates with players like Ron Duguay and Dmitri Kvartalnov.
And perhaps as important, he was performing at an extremely high level. He played in the IHL’s All-Star Game and was named MVP after a two-goal, three-assist game. And the national media was taking notice.
In the sunshine of San Diego, the San Jose Sharks are getting a clearer picture of Ray Whitney as an NHL prospect.
Whitney, 5-8, playing for the San Diego Gulls, has wowed the International Hockey League with 22 goals and 23 assists in 32 games.
“Even on bad nights, he does little things that show you he can do something at the NHL level,” Sharks assistant general manager Dean Lombardi said.
The Sharks, convinced Whitney’s development would be stunted, weren’t pleased when he signed with the German League last fall. When Cologne didn’t fulfill contract promises, Whitney jumped to San Diego.
“Some people thought we were behind all that,” Lombardi said. “Right, we put together a deal to put him in Germany, have him break the contract, make him come back, have him cut by the Canadian Olympic team and then have him sign with San Diego. That would be some engineering.”
Allen, Kevin. “Sharks attracted by IHL’s Whitney.” USA Today 4 Feb. 1992, Sports: 4C.
Time dragged on with still no ruling from the NHL. In the meantime, San Diego changed hands at the top with a sale of the team to Fred Comrie. And he was determined to make a splash and boost his team in a monumental way. Perhaps he was taking Peoria’s and St. Louis’ mocking advice.
Would Eric Lindros consider playing in the International Hockey League for the remainder of the season?
The owners of the San Diego Gulls, who intend to make it worth his while, think he might.
On Friday, they transmitted a firm offer to France, where Lindros was playing for the Canadian Olympic team. The deal is this: If Lindros plays out the season for the Gulls – approximately 30 games – he will be paid $500,000, considerably more than he would get if he returns to the Ontario Hockey League’s Oshawa Generals.
Because the Gulls are not affiliated with any NHL team, there are no restrictions to prevent Lindros from accepting the offer.
Already on the team is Ray Whitney, the second-round draft pick of the San Jose Sharks who starred for the WHL’s Spokane Chiefs last season, as well as former NHL players Ron Duguay and Charlie Simmer, and Keith Gretzky, Wayne’s brother.
Both parties would probably do well financially. Lindros would get his half-million and the Gulls would have a good chance of boosting their average attendance to 14,000 from 11,000. Lindros, en route to Canada from France, will reveal his decision this week.
“$500,000 Offer For Lindros – IHL’S San Diego Gulls Bid For Canadian Star.” The Seattle Times 25 Feb. 1992, Sports: D5.
At some point around this time, Whitney did in fact sign with San Jose for the 1992-93 season. Or maybe not. I’ve only found a passing mention of this so far, and other sources that indicate a later time.
Around the same time, San Diego signed goalie Sean Burke, who played to that point in 1991-92 with the Canadian National Team after a lengthy contract dispute with the New Jersey Devils. Once the Olympics concluded, it was expected that Burke would go back to New Jersey. Instead, he ended up in San Diego, which drew the ire of Devils’ GM Lou Lamoriello.
When Burke returned from the Olympics, [new Gulls owner Fred] Comrie made his move. Burke could continue to wait for a trade. Or he could come to San Diego and play hockey for a decidedly unminor-league sum of money.
Burke came. Those screams you hear originate in New Jersey.
“Did we take a risk?” wondered Waddell. “Yes and no. The first phone call I got Monday was from Lou Lamoriello, the New Jersey general manager, which I predicted would happen when we signed Burke Sunday night. He wanted to know if there was an escape clause in the contract. I said no. They offered us money for the contract (reportedly $500,000). We said no.”
Is Waddell concerned his franchise may come to be regarded as some sort of maverick as a result of its daring?
It started with Whitney gamble
“I think we get credit for going out on a limb,” he said. “We’ve done that a number of times this year, starting right with Ray Whitney, early in the year, when nobody else would sign him and we withstood all the (threats) of lawsuits and all that by turning him pro as a player.
“This is just another step, an example of this organization trying to do what it can to put the best team on the ice. We haven’t broken any rules. We’ve done everything above board. I think most people look at it as we’re just trying to win hockey games.”
Waddell always has had the savvy for such maneuvering. Now, with Comrie, he has a willing conspirator.
Lockwood, Wayne. “There’s nothing average about Gulls, whose ambition is strictly big-league.” San Diego Union-Tribune, The 12 Mar. 1992, Sports: C-2.
One ruling that the NHL could get done in a hurry that involved the Sharks was one involving a trade deadline deal involving Kelly Kisio, who was sent to Chicago. But the league’s phone number and fax machine rang busy for over an hour as the deadline came and went. Two days later…
Both teams had said they completed the deal before the deadline but couldn’t get through to the fax machine at the league’s Central Registry in Montreal. The governors ruled the trade invalid during a meeting in Chicago, where the board had gathered to discuss the league’s stalled collective bargaining negotiations.
”It was ruled that the trade was not completed as required by league by-laws,” NHL spokesman Gary Meagher said. “It came in after the deadline.”
Sharks General Manager Jack Ferreira was on a plane when word got out that the deal had been canceled and couldn’t be reached for comment. Kisio couldn’t be reached either and Assistant G.M. Dean Lombardi said he didn’t have enough details about the decision to evaluate it.
”I don’t blame anybody for trying to apply the rules,” Lombardi said. “If they determined that it was after the deadline, then that’s it.”
Weaver, Mike. “Kisio Deal Is Ruled Invalid By NHL – He’ll Stay With Sharks For Rest Of Season.” San Jose Mercury News (CA) 13 Mar. 1992, Sports: 1D.
This ruling came less than 36 hours after the trade deadline.
Meanwhile, the trade winds may have still been blowing.
The Kansas City Blades, the farm team for the San Jose Sharks, reportedly are trying to work a deal with the San Diego Gulls to get Ray Whitney, who is under contract with the Sharks. Whitney has 72 points in just 52 games.
Schutte, Mark. “Komets gearing for preview of playoffs 03/12.” Journal Gazette, The (Fort Wayne, IN) 13 Mar. 1992, A Section: 1B
I’m not 100% certain that this was still the case. It seems that in the aftermath of the IHL All-Star Game, the Sharks cooled off on either forcing Whitney into their system or just getting him out of San Diego.
Meanwhile, turmoil was hitting the NHL. Long-boiling labor issues were finally reaching a critical point, and the NHLPA went on strike on April 1. During the strike, the IHL playoffs began with a first-round series pitting San Diego against defending champion Peoria. And in the WHL, Spokane was facing the Seattle Thunderbirds in a second-round playoff series.
To make a long story short, the NHL strike that threatened the playoffs lasted ten days. The Gulls were shockingly hammered out of the playoffs by Peoria. And Spokane lost their playoff series.
In other words, Whitney’s IHL season had ended and the WHL team that held his rights had their season ended as well. And that meant…
The Sharks will be able to take a glimpse into the future at the Cow Palace tonight.
A piece of that future arrived Tuesday when center Ray Whitney — the second player chosen by the Sharks in last year’s NHL entry draft — joined the team in time to play tonight against Calgary and in Thursday’s season finale against Winnipeg.
Thanks to the 10-day strike that interrupted the NHL season and the quick elimination of the San Diego Gulls from the International Hockey League playoffs, the Sharks were able to put Whitney on their roster this season instead of having to wait for training camp in September.
Whitney is expected to play at least occasionally on a line with Pat Falloon, his former teammate in juniors.
“This was a great surprise,” said Whitney, who had been playing for the Gulls and signed with the Sharks late Monday. “I’m a little nervous, but I’m happy to be here.”
The road to San Jose has been a long one for Whitney, who played in Germany before joining the Gulls in November. He was unable to sign with the Sharks after the start of the season because he still had juniors eligibility with the Spokane Chiefs of the Western Hockey League. That prohibition disappeared with the conclusion of Spokane’s season last week. And when the Gulls were eliminated from the IHL playoffs Monday, Sharks assistant general manager Dean Lombardi was in San Diego to sign Whitney.
“I’ve been all over the world to get to San Jose,” Whitney said after practicing with the Sharks for the first time. “It was a long haul, but everything has worked out great for me.”
Weaver, Mike. “With Whitney In Lineup, Sharks’ Future Is Now.” San Jose Mercury News (CA) 15 Apr. 1992, Morning Final, Sports: 1E
How did he look in his debut?
The latest Sharks signee, center Ray Whitney, made his NHL debut last night against the Calgary Flames.
Whitney, signed Tuesday to a multiyear contract, played sparingly but assisted on the Sharks’ third goal, which tied the game almost halfway through the third period.
Whitney and Sharks right wing Pat Falloon are best friends and played together last season at Spokane (Wash.) of the Western Hockey League, leading the team to the championship of major junior hockey.
“(Whitney) earned his opportunity to come up here,” Sharks assistant general manager Dean Lombardi said last night. “It wasn’t just because he was Falloon’s teammate.”
Whitney played this season for the San Diego Gulls of the International Hockey League, accumulating 36 goals and 54 assists, and his 90 points were sixth in the league in scoring. Whitney was the IHL All-Star Game’s Most Valuable Player.
“What he accomplished in the minors as a 19-year-old is phenomenal,” Lombardi said.
Curiel, Jonathan. “SHARKS REPORT – Whitney Makes His NHL Debut.” San Francisco Chronicle 16 Apr. 1992, Sports: C2.
It was a whirlwind six months, one that involved a staredown involving numerous teams, people, and leagues. It established Waddell as a maverick of a GM (despite his objections to such a label), and certainly didn’t do much for the positive perception of Whitney.
What’s interesting is that over the years, this episode and this perception has been largely forgotten. Waddell’s legacy took a beating over the years with the Atlanta Thrashers, and Whitney became a widely-respected player known as much for quiet leadership as for his on-ice production.
This writing may be especially timely, since the most recent #1 overall draft pick (Auston Matthews) spent his draft year in Europe rather than play junior hockey. Whether this negatively impacts his career or legacy in time is unknown. But one thing is for certain: it sure didn’t affect Ray Whitney.
submitted by NathanGa to hockey [link] [comments]

ABC's of Science and Exmormonism: S is for ...

Smiths. That’s right, from the very beginning; long before there was a Book of Mormon to debate, people had issues with the family God would wait roughly 1500 years to be “prepared” properly before communicating again to man. Throughout reading this, one should keep in mind other possible families God could have communicated to throughout this period such as:
Any number of other religious movements that formed during this period in the very same region; the Burned Over District.
Or others that we still know today
We are to believe that all of these dedicated, god-seeking, similar doctrines that earned them persecution and similar sects, off-shoots or reformations were all devil-led while the Smith’s were the perfect family for the Restoration? Not only that, but there was no similar family for 1500 years that could have done the job as well?
{Note: I’m not going to address the legal situation required for the “Restoration” of the gospel, and how the United States was more idyllic as laws were looser for religions. It’s a post of its own. For this discussion let’s just mention the sheer number of extra-legal activities by the church such as Polygamy in Nauvoo and Kirtland; the ]Kirtland Banking Society found to be illegal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society), Joseph Smith’s setup of Nauvoo’s legal structure that made it a den of refuge for those who killed, murdered, raped, etc. as one could escape the law there as evidence that if God supported Joseph, extra-legal dealings for the restoration weren’t really a concern. One might say that other countries would have hunted him down to prevent the church from forming with military might; but as several “Mobs” in Mormon history were actually militias, the same actually happened in the U.S. As such, I don’t think “The Restoration could only happen in the United States” really is a strong argument.}
The Smiths:
Work on a frame house at the farm was halted by the unexpected death of Smith's eldest son, Alvin, in 1823. Smith subsequently failed to make payments on the farm. Lemuel Durfee purchased it as a favor to the family and allowed the Smiths to continue there as renters through 1830
Though a spiritual man, Smith showed little interest in organized religion and was content to allow his wife control over the religious upbringing of their children. This indifference bothered Lucy very much. After much prayer, she said she had received a divine witness that her husband would some day accept "the pure and undefiled Gospel of the Son of God.
The Smith family while living in Palmyra and Manchester are said (1) to have been lazy, shiftless, intemperate and untruthful; (2) to have opened a "shop" in Palmyra where they sold cakes, pies, root beer, and the like; and that on public occasions, such as the Fourth of July, militia training days, and election days, the elder Smith would load a rude hand-cart, made by himself, with these wares and sally forth to find such patronage as might come to hand; (3) to have been dishonest and guilty of stealing from their neighbors. (B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol.1, Ch.4, p.39)
The Smiths would have been selling "beer" in the 1820's while "root beer" was not invented until 1869! That is the artificially-carbonated, non-alcoholic version of "root beer" as we know it today
Mack was proud of her father's involvement in the Revolutionary War. Even though Solomon Mack was not committed to any religious belief system, he certainly appreciated the diligence of his wife in attending to the spiritual and educational needs of their children. "All the flowery eloquence of the pulpit," he said, could not match the influence of his wife on their children (chap. 1).
Mack married Joseph Smith, Sr., in January 1796, bringing a wedding gift of $1,000 from her brother, Stephen, and his business partner, John Mudget. Lucy Smith assumed the responsibility for the moral and religious guidance of her children as well as for their secular education.
She had a near death experience with consumption. She vowed that, if her life was spared, she would serve God with all her heart, whereupon she heard a voice advising her, "Seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you. Let your heart be comforted; ye believe in God, believe also in me." From that point on, Smith began a long search for a religion that would teach her the way of salvation. In so doing, she was following the precepts of her culture. During this post-revolutionary period, religious speakers constantly emphasized the "cultivation" of female piety so that women might more ably fulfill their role as a "moral mother" (Bloch, 118). The interesting bit is this is all pre-palmyra days so the Smith's were influenced by all of this by the time the neighbors report about them.
Smith continued to educate her children in secular as well as spiritual matters. Dr. John Stafford of Palmyra, New York interviewed in 1880, remembered that Smith "had a great deal of faith that their children were going to do something great" and also recalled that Smith taught her ten children from the Bible.
Smith took the initiative in trying to involve her family in seeking the "true church." In light of Joseph Sr.'s indifference, she sought consolation in prayer that the gospel would be brought to her husband and was reassured by a dream that her husband would be given "the pure and undefiled Gospel of the Son of God" (56). About this time, Joseph Sr. began having dreams with symbolic content that were interpreted as being related to his ambivalence about religious faith. These dreams continued after the family's move to Palmyra, New York, until he had had seven in all; Lucy remembers five well enough to quote in detail.
Situation prior to the Restoration
Rough Stone Rolling handles this period excellently and I highly recommend it. I’m just going to summarize:
Joseph Smith Sr. (Father Smith) had invested about $2000, he received from an inheritance into a scam. They lost it all and he never quite recovered. Prone to get-rich-quick schemes he did work, including maple sugar from trees and brewing a fermented root beer ("Not your Father’s Root Beer" is supposed to be close, but actual root beer wasn't invented until the 1860's so anything described as root beer here is beer made from roots. Got that?)
They lived in Vermont until a crop failure forced them to relocate. This led my Seminary teacher to speculate that the crop failure was divine in origin, forcing them to move closer to where the plates were buried (which plates would not be used in the translation process according to the recent Essay, remember). The crop failure wasn’t just the Smith’s own fields, and shouldn’t be taken as a sign of “lack of industry” for most farmer’s crops failed that year due to the climate altering. What altered the climate? A volcano a half a world away; [Edit: Tambora] Krakatoa had exploded altering the weather patterns. Unusual crop failures, snows, and weather-induced deaths are recorded around the world at this time. To imply that God would control volcanoes causing deaths by freezing around the world rather than communicate via angel directly to Father Smith says volumes about both God’s character and the lack of receptiveness of the divine in the Smith home… or accepting the random factors that led Joseph to be in Palmyra in 1820-24 were not divinely inspired also communicates a lot about the Nature of God and how the Smith’s were very lucky indeed to end up with the plates in their backyard. Why, they even looked at other locations than Palmyra to move to after the crop failure.
Alvin really did the hard work – we’re about to review a whole set of comments of the citizens of Palmyra and the neighbors of the Smiths on whether they had a good work ethic. We’re going to see a very conflicted set of statements in which the Smith’s are both called industrious but poor; as well as lazy.
FAIRMormon attempts to prove the Smiths were ideal in industry and that the lazy reports were just sourpusses or the devil’s attempt to discredit the Smith’s.
I propose a different solution:
The Smiths were like Mexican Immigrants portrayed by the Republican Party – The Smiths did very low-skill high labor work. Dig a wells. Harvest maple sugar. Fix the thing. Sell popcorn and beer.
In the same way I hear Utah/Idaho republicans frequently talking about Mexicans being lazy, simply sapping off resources from Food Stamps, health care, and other government programs while at the same time accusing them of “Taking our jobs”, I think the Smith’s neighbors accuse them of both taking up all the work in the area; while being lazy.
Hence the curious case of them being industrious and lazy at the same time is explained through common human behavior when viewing unskilled labor; and no need to have the devil brought into the explanation. Just picture some illegal Mexican family in the ward boundaries and how the ward members might talk; and I think you get a pretty good feel for how the neighborhood statements should be read.
Financial situation of the Smiths
FairMormon states:
Given the financial difficulties under which the Smith family labored, it would hardly be surprising that they might hope for such a reversal in their fortunes. Richard Bushman has compared the Smith's attitude toward treasure digging with a modern attitudes toward gambling, or buying a lottery ticket. Bushman points out that looking for treasure had little stigma attached to it among all classes in the 17th century, and continued to be respectable among the lower classes into the 18th and 19th.
I think this is a fair statement to make; and not inaccurate. However I want you to think about background checks currently conducted. One of the things that companies and the Government look into (heavily) is the indebtedness and poverty level of individuals in key positions? Why? Because those individuals would be easier to manipulate or turn over key secrets for money. One must account for why God would look for people essentially buying lottery tickets as their best hope for a financial future, as the only family in 1500 years He could work with to bring about the restoration.
{Note on money digging as an activity being a credible source of income: The local newspapers reported on "money digging" activities
• "digging for money hid in the earth is a very common thing and in this state it is even considered as honorable and profitable employment"
• "One gentleman...digging...ten to twelve years, found a sufficient quantity of money to build him a commodious house.
• "another...dug up...fifty thousand dollars!" [15]
• And, in 1825 the Wayne Sentinel in Palmyra reported that buried treasure had been found "by the help of a mineral stone, (which becomes transparent when placed in a hat and the light excluded by the face of him who looks into it)." [16]
Although these claims are clearly not true in hindsight (["I don't know of a single account of anyone actually turning up something of any value"(http://mormonheretic.org/2012/06/12/treasure-digging-in-the-1800s/)] - Richard Bushman in interview with John Dehlin), the gullible of the area in that time could easily be understood as suckered in by such claims. These are, for lack of a better comparison, the “Nigerian Prince” emails of Joseph Smith’s day, and Joseph Smith Jr. would play the part of the scammer, taking small payments with a promise of a large payout after those initial payments are made
FAIRMormon attempts to prove the Smiths were industrious through economic value added to the property they were renting. I think this is a good attempt at bringing hard numbers to the debate.
However; they look at rate of increase as the measure. The property they were on was not highly valued when they rented it and that should be kept in mind. Adding the frame house does show industry; however and shouldn’t be ignored. Alvin, again, did a lion’s share of that effort. For more on the rental contract, and how they improved land that wasn’t theirs to keep up with the neighbors see Rough Stone Rolling's first chapter.
Let's return to our Metaphor: Imagine that the Mexican Family in the ward boundaries moving into a rented duplex, and building a two story house for themselves, without permission in the backyard of the rental. The landlord shows up surprised that there is a house on his property. He then demands back rent; and the family refuses to pay the back rent as they used their rent-money to buy the materials for the house they built. He offers to let one of their kids work in his store to pay off some of the back-rent; and when they still don't pay he throws them out for not paying rent and keeps the property.
One can see how “improvements to land” do show some industry, but they might still come off as selfish, not very bright in how they did their industry, etc.
Palmyra Statements about the Smiths -
Orlando Saunders, stated that the members of the Smith family “have all worked for me many a day; they were very good people.
The Hurlburt affidavits in Mormonism Unveiled are the primary claims for the Smith family being lazy
The Manchester residents; 11 neighbors of the Smith's signed the following:
We, the undersigned, being personally acquainted with the family of Joseph Smith, sen. with whom the celebrated Gold Bible, so called, originated, state: that they were not only a lazy, indolent set of men, but also intemperate; and their word was not to be depended upon; and that we are truly glad to dispense with their society (Howe 1834, p. 262).
Peter Ingersoll – was one of these residents • Claimed that the Smith family's general employment was "digging for money." • Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. taught him to use a divining rod. • Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. and Alvin Smith used a stone in a hat to see things. • Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr., was engaged in "divination." • Claimed that Joseph Smith, Jr. admitted to his father-in-law that he only pretended to be able to see things in the stone. • Claimed that Joseph Smith, Jr. fooled his family into thinking that a frock full of sand was the "Gold Bible." • Claimed that Joseph told his family that nobody could see the "Gold Bible" and live. • Claimed that Joseph made up the story of the gold plates on the spot, after which he is supposed to have said, "I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun." Claimed that Joseph told him that "he had no such book, and believed there never was any such book." • Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. said that there had been a book found in a hollow tree in Canada that described the "first settlement of this country before it was discovered by Columbus."
Willard Chase - a friend of Joseph Smith. "the most vigorous of the Manchester treasure-seekers" as well aT a Methodist class leader (Rough Stone Rolling, page 50)
Chase only cares that he was involved in finding the seerstone and doesn't comment of Joseph's work ethic
Isaac Hale was the father-in-law of Joseph Smith Junior. Hale's affidavit concerns his belief that the story of the translation of the gold plates was a delusion on the part of Smith and his associates
Isaac doesn't comment of the Smith family work ethic and only gives glass-looking as Joseph's profession, but did pay to publish a denouncement of his son-in-law's profession.
Lucy Harris - was the former wife of Martin Harris and implies that he became less industrious after joining the mormons, but no comment on Smith's family work eithic
Let’s go back to our “Mexicans in the ward” metaphor. After building a house without permission on rented land, they move out refusing to pay their back rent into another area of the country. Could the views of neighbors be slightly tainted if asked about their “moral character” based on this alone. Sure. We should also consider one line that is particularly specific:
Joseph Smith, Senior, and his son Joseph, were in particular, considered entirely destitute of moral character, and addicted to vicious habits
Remember that Alvin was the hard worker. He supported the family until his sudden death; while Joseph Smith Sr. earned month through popcorn and beer sales at holidays. Again with our Mexican family metaphor: if that house that was built on the rented property, wasn't even constructed by the father, while the eldest son was out and about earning income and also building the home the father could very much be seen as lazy.
Joseph Smith responded direct to the accusations against his character in December 1834 in the Messenger and Advocate in December 1834:
During this time, as is common to most, or all youths, I fell into many vices and follies; but as my accusers are, and have been forward to accuse me of being guilty of gross and outrageous violations of the peace and good order of the community, I take the occasion to remark, that, though, as I have said above, "as is common to most, or all youths, I fell into many vices and follies," I have not, neither can it be sustained, in truth, been guilty of wronging or injuring any man or society of men; and those imperfections to which I allude, and for which I have often had occasion to lament, were a light, and too often, vain mind, exhibiting a foolish and trifling conversation.
This being all, and the worst, that my accusers can substantiate against my moral character, I wish to add, that it is not without a deep feeling of regret that I am thus called upon in answer to my own conscience, to fulfill a duty I owe to myself, as well as to the cause of truth, in making this public confession of my former uncircumspect walk, and unchaste conversation: and more particularly, as I often acted in violation of those holy precepts which I knew came from God. But as the "Articles and Covenants" of this church are plain upon this particular point, I do not deem it important to proceed further. I only add, that (I do not, nor never have, pretended to be any other than a man "subject to passion," and liable, without the assisting grace of the Savior, to deviate from that perfect path in which all men are commanded to walk!)[40]
What is interesting about this rebuttal to the accusations on his family is that Joseph does not refute claims of laziness, or of treasure hunting but simply says he had unchaste talk. Further he refers multiple times to folley. Sometimes apologists claim that his treasure hunting days were preparation for his work as a translator or a prophet but here, Joseph in direct rebuttal to being accused of as a money digger calls it “Folley”. That seems to indicate that such activities were not considered by him to be a preparation or of god at all. Indeed he uses the words “public confession of my former uncircumspect walk”.
All the FAIRMormon gathered newspaper clippings in the world claiming that money digging was common in the area or nothing to be ashamed of doesn’t seem to refute that Joseph, himself, felt the need publicly confess that this was inappropriate behavior.
The Smith’s and Religion – Modern church depictions show Joseph Smith’s family as being very devote to multiple faiths; but just questioning; much in the way Jeremy Runnels asked questions of church leaders in his CES Letter. They depict the local church leadership as being uncaring, unwilling to answer questions, and quick to push off Smith questions, much like LDS leadership has treated Jeremy Runnels.
*What was the Smith’s relationship to religion? *
Lucy, Hyrum and Samuel were Presbyterian until 1830; but they were removed from membership at their request for not attending church for a year and a half. Lucy was the driving force with Joseph Smith Sr. having revelatory dreams about needing to find the true religion. Again, if the Mexican family in the ward were less active, the gossip might be that they were lazy, no?
Milton V. Backman wrote this about the issue:
If the belittling statements by men who supposedly were acquainted with the Smith family were correct, and if members of the family had been liars, immoral, and "addicted to vicious habits," Lucy, Hyrum and Samuel would have been unable to retain their membership in the Western Presbyterian Church until 1830. In that era excommunications were frequent in most congregations, including the Presbyterian society of Palmyra. Individuals judged guilty of immorality, profanity, lying, drunkenness, gambling, and other such sins were excommunicated from this society. The reason members of the Smith family were dismissed from the Lord's Supper in the spring of 1830 was not because of any of the above charges but only because they desired to withdraw their membership and had neglected to attend church for a year and a half. [41]
TL;DR: Conclusion – The Smith’s were quite industrious but were called “lazy” by a lot of their neighbors. Rather than either taking the Hurlburt affadavits at face value; or decrying all of the neighbors as liars; manipulated by Satan to discredit “God’s Work” one can probably review the situation as one of prejudice and human folly. I submit the "Mexican family in the ward" analogy helps to resolve the issue with a simple metaphor
This post took about 4 re-writes and countless hours of research. The interesting thing is that even though science was applied to it, or economics, or what have you, it is 100% ad hominum arguement. A lazy boy could bring forward a true book, and an industrious worker could publish lies. It might help to understand the context of other statements, but all in all, it is a non-issue; and yet continues to have books published on both sides of the issue from 1834 until today.
As to whether God would wait 1500 years to reveal the one true gospel to a family that did the contemporary equivalent of buying lotto tickets, in a method that Joseph Smith Jr., himself, would call folly and publicly confess was questionable behavior; when so many contemporary families were so devoutly seeking God that the area would be called the Burned Over District in relation to religious revival zealotry says rather more of God’s character than perhaps the apologists realize. Concluding that Joseph Smith is the only individual in 1500 years god could trust, requires ignoring some of his more questionable later activities (such as Fanny Alger), as well as the sheer random nature of the Smith’s ending up in Palmyra. I think it is a very flimsy claim; but bolstering that flimsy claim is necessary; as it moves from the realm of Ad Hominum as soon as one claims Joseph Smith Jr was the ONLY man God could trust to being very much dependent on his character and upbringing. As such I have to conclude that the Smith family "Weren't all that special" and his metaphyscial-treasure seeking was not more than "Folley" and certainly not a Yoda-in-degobah-esque training ground for a prophet.
The restoration is unlikely to have been put off for 1500 for the Smith home, which seems by all accounts only mark-worthy outside their home being key to the restoration. As so we'll leave it with that circular logic. We only know this family from any other in the 1800's because God chose them, and the claim is that God chose them because they were special. They might not have been overly lazy; but they weren't spectacular either.
Reposted as original was placed in spam filter
submitted by Mithryn to exmormon [link] [comments]

[Table] IAmA- Casino Manager, I've seen everything, AMA

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Date: 2012-05-15
Link to submission (Has self-text)
Link to my post
Questions Answers
Are you hiring? I'd love to move to Canada. Absolutely, We are looking for several positions and if you are sincerely looking for a job, message me :)
Does being a Casino Manager makes you keep your distance from gambling? AMAZING question, It actually makes it worse. I had never gambled a day in my life until I took that position. It is the same across the board. Never met another manager that doesnt gamble.
Will you quit this job if you had given the choice? I could not ask for a better job. Excitement every single day. Learing to control personal demons such as gambling and alcohol is always a fighting battle given the situation.
You are 100% right. U of Waterloo in Ontario conducted a study and they concluded that "casino employees exhibited rates of problem gambling that were over three times greater than rates that past studies have found in Ontario’s general population." -Link to uwspace.uwaterloo.ca. I know my stuff ;). It's a weird feeling.
What do you play, and wht stakes do you play ? Also.. Does your entire salary go straight back to the casino after payday? I like to play 1$ slots and blackjack for the most part. On blackjack my average bet is probably 60-75$. My salary does go back, but a portion of it does. I am pretty good at controlling myself, gets better by the year.
How is your daily routine in the casino?Do you get any perks? They pay my cell phone bill. I get paid any expenses you could imagine. I get free tickets and merchandise all the time. Golf passes dinners etc.
Have you ever caught someone counting in blackjack? Several times. With the security features we use, shuffle machines and cutting off 2-3 decks from the back, it's nearly impossible. Hell we will even teach you how to do it if you'll stay a while ;)
How did you get into the Casino business? I applied to become a dealer, years ago. I just worked my way up. Its an amazing business.
Ever had somebody die on your floor? Or at least horribly injured? Yes 2 people have died, one from a massive stroke, and another from a heart attack. We have had at least 25 heart attacks since I have worked there.
Do heart attacks happen more often when people win big or lose big? There has never been a direct correlation between winning/losing big and our patrons having heart attacks.
Interesting. Thanks for the response. Anytime :) I cant believe the responses already!
Statistically, you have the best chance of surviving a heart attack in a casino. The average response time drops from like 15 minutes in your home to something absurd like 30 seconds. We are very quick to react. This and we have first aid training as well as AED on site.
What the highest single bet you have witnessed? Here in Alberta, the maximum per spot on blackjack is 1000. I did witness a total table wager( by one player) Of 15,000. This was after he split 6 times and doubled once. He won evry wager on that hand.
Whats the luckiest person/win streak you have seen? (Not just 1 win but someone winning for a while or doing something crazy and it working) I watched someone win 24,000 on a slot machine. I reset his machine and he won 24,000 the next spin. I had the machine investigated by AGLC and all was well. He was 80 so I don't think he could cheat. Lol.
Do Casino's pump high levels of oxygen into the gambling areas, if so is that allowed? Have you ever caught anyone having sex or masturbating in the Casino? Do the Slot Machines ever get tampered with by cheaters? What is the penalty for tampering with slot machines? No we do not pump oxygen into the casino, It is not allowed. I had to fire an employee for masturbating in the customer bathrooms. Slots are rarely successfully tampered with, but it does happen quite often. The penalty is a fine and up to jail time. You can get in a LOT of trouble for trying something that is nearly impossible, like cheating a slot machine No problem :)
How...did you catch the guy spanking it? I fear to know yet I must ask for I can't think of a logical, sane way you caught the dude. I walked in to the washroom to check on the status of the last cleaning, and I caught him beating it with the stall door open... he forgot to lock it. was very obvious and he didnt even try to deny it.
Nobody forgets to lock the door when they are wanging it. He was off shift in 45 mins too... just couldnt wait.
It isn't illegal, what can the casinos do? We reserve the right to remove any patron at any time for any reason.
Do you still have to cash their chips if you kick them out? If they did not steal them, then Absolutely.
What is the best and worst part of your job? The best is seeing a person win big. The worst is seeing someone leaving in tears and me knowing they are broke and have kids.
Have you ever cut someone a break? Several times.
You've seen everything, have you seen Casino with Robert DeNiro in it and how accurate is that film? I have seen it, and I have yet to see a movie that ACTUALLY portrays a real casino whatsoever.
Most movies don't portray anything realistically. Good point. Casinos seem to be reallly far off though.
What about Croupier with Clive Owen.. good film.. Cant say ive seen it. Will watch.
What's the most desperate attempt to cheat in a casino you have ever seen? A guy in the middle of a hand, did not agree with the way a dealer "flipped" their hole card so he took his bets off the table (approx 1400$) and tried to pocket them before we could count what he had bet. He then tried to replace his bets after we asked with about 800$. It was very very easy to catch the amount that was originally on there. Cameras/pit boss/dealer all agreed to the exact amount. He was later found trying to cash out $600 in chips (after losing) lol.
That actually sounds pretty clever. He should have just gone for a smaller amount though. It wasnt bad. But he was on a high limit table with a lot of people watching
Any pranks you or your employees pulled? Yup, I am known as the prankster. I like to send new employees looking for left handed roulette balls or polish for the blackjack shoes. After they waste an hour or so I tell them. And they are laughed at by patrons and employees. Its all in good fun. Never had a complaint.
What happens to a cheater once you found them out? Is it just a case of the cops getting called straight away? I review the situation, and If I deem it cheating, a review is sent to AGLC and the patrons information gathered along with a police investigation. They will be prosecuted.
Do you catch cheaters? What were some cleveinvolved cheating schemes? I have caught cheaters, almost always at blackjack and threecard poker. The most common way they cheat is called "pressing". Having a partner distract the dealer for a second while they use slight of hand to add chips. Some people are very good at this, so good its tough to see on camera even.
To be clear.. what they do is when they have a good hand, someone distracts the dealer and the guy with the good hand attempts to increase his bet? What do you do when you catch something like that? We ban them Immediately. And other casinos recieve the memo an do the same.
Have you ever caught prostitution going on in the casino? What is the process of banning someone? Do they get put into a system? Do you have a banned wall? Yes we catch dirty prostitutes all the time. The ban process is easy. We take what info we have on them, take a recent photo from a surveillance screenshot and then post it to the banned wall :)
How is the security in the casino? Edit: no i'm not planning a robbery... The guards are pretty well trained. Also we have over 200 cameras. You are on camera within 1 KM of the casino. Also, all doors locked with special proxy cards that only have access to certain rooms, depending on position.
ONE KILOMETER? Are you kidding me? This is very secure, oh my. Cant tell if sarcasm. Detector is broken.
No sarcasm. This blows my mind. I always thought you guys have over the top security, but such a radius around your casino is mind blowing :). Great AMA btw, thanks for your time! I love the response im getting! This is awesome!
What is the process in working your way up from dealer to casino manager? How long did it take, what kind of background did you have prior to becoming a dealer? Also did you have to take any classes or anything like that either at an outside school or a company school to teach you all the ins and outs of the job? Did you ever think you'd be doing this or just sort of fall into it? What kind of responsibilities do you hold? I saw in your other posts that you mention throwing out people masturbating on the clock, helping people with gambling addictions and catching cheaters, but what is an everyday entail for you? I imagine you have to be a man with many hats (VIP guest liaison, worker ally, eyes for the bosses etc) Also last question I swear, what do you think of organized cheaters and the exposure they are getting such as Bringing Down the House/21 or the History Channel show on Breaking Vegas? It took me 4 years to get where I am. Went from dealer to pit boss to pit supervisor to games manager. I haven't taken any special courses really. Some training sessions but that's about it. You need to have the gift they say. As for responsibilities. I am in charge of running every department when I am on shift. And I am in charge of all the money. The movies have not done anything except make us money. People come in all the time thinking they will count cards and win, and we smash them.
In my expeirence, the 'Summon Technician' button rarely works. Thoughts? In my casino, it is attended to immediately. We are the only casino that I am aware of that does this.
Are employees allowed to gamble in the casino where they work? Or is just the manager that is allowed - I noticed you say you gamble off the clock. I live in England and am sure this is against nearly all casino policy. Only waitresses and guest services may gamble in our casino. No gaming worker is allowed to gamble in their own casino in alberta.
Any moral qualms sometimes? Never, Its a persons choice on what the wish to gamble.
Give it a few more years. I've got over that a long time ago. During my dealing days.
a follow up, sorry for that.. How do your co-workers react to yout gambling, does this make it awkward in any way? Actually, I tend to go to different casinos with my co-workers, awkwardness is never an issue.
Since you know a lot about security and cheating, do you know any loopholes in your or any other casino? Our casino is very secure. Some of the other casinos on the other hand..
For example? That I can't really disclose. Although. It's quite funny which one is the worst. I will leave it at that. I'm sure that comment alone will help some people.
Many years ago my mom had a gambling addiction. We werent sure how severe it was, we just thought she would go to the casino and have some fun and risk $200 or so. The casino hooked her in with the whole VIP treatment and rewards as an incentive to come back. One weekend she lost all her life savings ($300,000) It impacted our family a lot, as we were pretty much broke after she lost all our money. Even to this day we havent recovered, i missed out on college to work instead and been on my own since. My mom whos supposed to be close to retirement age is still working to support herself. I know casinos are for entertainment, but more often than not stories like this happen. How do you feel when a family is affected deeply because of gambling problems? Honestly that is the only hard part of the job. But after the years, I've become mostly desensitized to it.
Have you ever seen Ocean's Eleven? Did you just laugh and laugh and laugh? Not a fan of those movies :(
Have you ever been to Montecarlo? Do you think there are many differences between the european casino scene and the US/Canadian scene? Never been to Montecarlo, but from everything I have learned about it, It is very similar to our casinos in Canada (barring a few different table games). They have a lot of the same slot machines and their security is VERY high.
So, do you get hookers? Not once in my life.
Is there a certain amount of time that people are allowed to gamble before some sort of intervention takes place? (e.g. can't gamble for more than 24 hours straight, etc.) Our casino is only open for 17 hours at a time maximum. That is the law in this province. But under certain circumstances, we do offer help to people we notice becoming chronic gamblers.
What Kind of help do you offer out of interest? I get that the human factor is probably the reason its offered as the business side must actually like chronic gamblers. We offer councelling (not directly, but sources) and different programs such as VSE. VSE= Voluntary Self Exclusion. You will be excluded from gaming in ALL of Alberta. If caught in gaming facilities you can be arrested.
Favorite Ice cream flavor? Vanilla for the most part. Although I do like neopalitan.
Have you ever caught your employees stealing chips? Edit: i cant spell. I try to hire employees that I trust with the chips so that I dont have to worry about them. It has never happened to my knowledge.
You mentioned that you try to hire employees that are trustworthy with the chips etc. Do you have to run any criminal history checks, bankruptcy checks etc before you hire people? Do you use continuous shuffle machines to deal blackjack or do you deal from a shoe? If from a shoe, how many decks? How do you combat card counters? What is the food chain like? Here we have Dealers < Floor managers < Pit Bosses < Duty managers < Casino manager. Where do you fit in? How do the high rollers rooms work? Can someone walk in and flash cash to get in or do you need to gamble a certain amount first? What perks do high rollers get? Yes background checks and credit checks are run on ALL employees. We offer both continuous shuffles and shoes We use 8 decks and cut 3 off the back, as well as use a shoe cover. Very hard to count cards like that. In our casino I would be considered 2nd in line. High rollers are treated very well. Comped tabs etc. free trips to shows and all that jazz.
Have you ever seen a man eat his own head? Nope!
Ever seen a card cheat get his hand smashed by a ballpeen hammer ? Never had to use violence for a cheating patron. Drunk patrons on the other hand....
Great AMA! You answer almost everything! Thanks! I try to answer everything, I know i miss stuff but you guys comments lots! hard to keep up!
Here's my question: How do your responsibilities differ from a Pit Boss? Are you in charge of the food and alcohol people, too? How much time per shift do you spend on the floor and how much time do you spend interacting with individual guests? I am in charge of all departments when I am on shift. Pit boss is strictly in charge of the pit. I am always on the gaming floor interacting with guests. Its the best part of my job :)
Any suicides? I live near Niagara Falls and we hear stories all the time of people who blow it all in the casinos and take a dive over the falls. Yes unfortunately. :(
Are you from Edmonton by chance? If so care to comment why CH is still allowed to play in the poker rooms after being caught ripping off casinos with his bad beat scam? Not from edmonton, but I do know who you are talking about. It is the discretion of the casinos. He should be banned but they have failed to file charges.
They are still aware of what he did and as a pretty frequent player it sort of sucks having to sit at a table with someone you know was using dealers to set up bad beats.... You play at yellowhead?
How does the casino decide what background music to play? do you hate those songs now? I ususally pick it. I pick it depending on the majority of the crowd. (old people = classic rock, young people = new music.) We have lots of playlists it doesnt really get too bad.
I notice a lot of times my favorite slot machines are removed from the floor and never to be seen again. Do you guys store them in a basement or sell them to other casinos? Recycle them for parts? Machines are regulated by AGLC, they send us new ones and take old every week.
How long does training for croupier last? Are there opportunities for college students? Training is usually a month long. Its easier to get a job as a dealer if you are young. Young people seem to learn a lot easier.
What is the longest you've seen a customer play a machine? Any 24-hour slot machine marathons? Open to close 4 days in a row. (17 hours a day)
What is your coin-in on an average Saturday night? Biggest New Year's Eve coin-in you can remember? What's the average toke rate? Over 1.5 million. Best tip rate for a week was 30 ish.
How much do you make? What's your educational background? Edit: saw that you can't answer how much you make. So how'd you get into the job? I walked in an applied for dealer. They loved my attitude and hired me on the spot.
So you were hired as a dealer and then moved up in the ranks? Sounds like a sweet job and a managerial position involving actual job duties. Absolutely.
Just curious (and maybe you don't know)-- how exactly is the software sold for the newer digital games? Order "Three of Game A, three of game B" and remain stuck with it? Order them configured one way, but the software can be replaced for a token sum? If so, is it an in-house operation, or a "vendor service has to be called? They can load any firmware specced as compatible with the box? I notice there's always one or two machines in a bank of (physically) equivalent units which have an unpopular game (like the one which starts belting out Dean Martin songs at 600 decibels in attract mode) so they sit relatively unused, but they never change them. Is it laziness, cost, or technical limits? I dont deal with the digital games sorry!
The Ontario Lottery Corporation is in the process of rolling out an online casino. From an industry persepective, what are your views on online casinos? Is the software designed to give you gains but take back once you win-loss ratio is too high? Online casinos (legit ones) Run by pretty much the same stats as a real casino. Same odds of winning almost exactly.
Can you see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch? Its magically delicious, or wait.. damn lucky charms
What's a good starting job to get at a casino that will eventually get you into a managing position? Dealer is the absolute best.
Thanks for the swift response. No problem.
Just in case you are still answering at all...what's te stupidest/seemingly impossible thing you've seen/heard of a dealer doing? Most awesome/badass? I had a dealer deal a full table of blackjack entirely fucking backwards. I almost pissed myself no joke.
If some patron is winning a lot of money, would you kick them out? Say for instance a guy is playing Blackjack and went from 1000 dollars to 100000 dollars and wants to continue playing. He is literally just owning the table winning 9/10 hands. Would you kick this guy out or let him keep playing? Nope, its good in house advertising to have big winners :)
Not sure if this was asked already, but is there really oxygen pumped into the casinos like people say there is? Or is it just the shiny lights and excitement that will keep you going all night? No oxygen pumped in. Its the lights and atmosphere.
What was the most someone won in one night? 1.1 million dollars.
If I were looking to move to Vegas, how difficult do you think it'd be to get a decent paying job working in the casinos? I have a friend who moved there and is looking for a roommate, but I'm nervous about taking the step without a job lined up. As long as you have a good head on your shoulders and the motivation, its pretty easy to get into the business.
What''s your salary roughly? Thats actually the only thing im not willing to disclose. Sorry pal.
Who is your favorite porn star? Hootie McBoob.
Do casinos usually offer part-time jobs as croupiers? Always have part time positions open. Especially for weekends.
I saw that you didn't like Ocean's Eleven, but how did the guys get all those hooker flyers into the vault? Lol your guess is as good as mine ;)
1) How's the pay? 2) You already mentioned that you worked your way up from a dealer. Is there much higher that you can go? 3) How has the economic downturn affected business? The pay is great You can go to managing a whole casino, given time Business has actually gone up. Alberta isnt very effected by it.
How often do you feel like De Niro? Every day.
Are there or have there been times when you know someone is cheating or doing something "unethical" but you just can't get the evidence? If so, do they still frequent the casino? do you feel like they do it on purpose to piss you (the casino) off because they know that you know? I dont need evidence, if someone is suspected of cheating they are gone. AGLC backs us 100%
I live in vegas and recently a guy robbed a casino and stole like 100k of chips, whats the process of making sure he isnt able to cash those chips in. (He was wearing a mask) So does the casinos like remake all new chips or what? We track our 100$ chips very carefully. when people cashout 100 or more, we know about it. If we dont see them playing, we watch that person closely.
What is the best way to get a room comped for a weekend (I always seem to get Sun-Thur offers)? What is the average bet / hours required of play (assuming black jack)? Is it true you should expect 30% of your losses returned in the form of comps? I wouldnt count on getting 30%, maybe 5-10%. Average bet should be about 50-60$
Lots of questions have come up about players cheating, but what about the house? I know people who have seen casinos get busted for rigging games. I have certainly played at blackjack tables where the dealers seemed to have an uncanny ability to predict hands, I even once had a dealer reveal a blackjack without using the little peek thing. Dealt, asked for insurance (with great intensity), told us we should have taken the hint and flipper her card. Have you seen any cheating by the house or have any reason to think it happens? Never have I seen cheating by the house. I guarantee it doesnt happen in any legit casino in Canada. There are inspectors at all times. I truly believe that it doesnt happen. As a dealer myself I could "predict" my handsquite often. Because you do it so many times in one day you are bound to get it right.
How many bones have you witnessed being broken? or families ruined because of gambling everything away? a lot or a ton? Maybe 5 broken bones, probably 50 families :(
Have you ever felt the need to tell some poor old folks: "Take your welfare checks home." ? Nope, they usually play small just to pass the time. They are very nice.
How prevalent is patron on patron theft? For example, leaning over and grabbing a few of someone else's chips while they're not looking, or tapping their stack with a drink (which happens to have tape on the bottom) or things like that? Doesn't happen very often chip wise. But it does happen if people leave credits in a machine, drop money on the ground, or leave money in an ATM. We will hunt the patron down and force them to pay back the money.
Why do Asians gamble so much and where the hell do they get all of that money? I dont want to speculate where they get it..
What would be the best way to go about robbing a casino? Not trying ;). No one gets away.
What do you do with underage kids or kids with fake IDs? do they ever show up? Kick them out and file a report. If they have fake ID, file it with the police.
I went to the casino for my first time last week. Slots are boring as shit. Do you recommend a black jack guide to get the hang of things? Thanks. Always good to go in knowing basic strategy. check out wizardofodds.com.
How much do you earn on average yearly? Cant disclose that :(
What's your take on Scorsese's 1995 "Casino"? :D:D. Would watch again.
Did you read the novels by Mario Puzo about the inner workings of a casino? Would you say that they are accurate? Not yet, in process.
What's your favorite Canadian province besides Alberta? Ontario.
My question is why did you use a combination of Photoshop and real-life obfuscation for your badge? Carefully torn and placed pieces of pink and black tape, then some kind of 1990s-era Photoshop airbrushing around the perimeter... I was looking for something quick. And I never really used a site like this. I know, I suck.
What are your thoughts on the Martingale method of gambling on Red/Black in Roulette? I have had moderate success waiting for a run of 4 of one colour, then betting $25 on the opposite colour, then doubling each time until I win. Its a very bad system for the most part. you risk a lot to win a little.
How often do customers claim the dealer misheard/misinterpreted what they said to do? E.g.. the customer was playing blackjack, didn't want to hit, but the dealer misheard them and dealed them a card, which caused them to bust. 5 times a day at least. I usually give them the benefit of the doubt.
Are there any games that people can beat long run other than bj? You can't beat BJ in the long run. There is no way to make money.
Since Counting cards isn't illegal, if you catch someone do you still black ball them and tell all the other casinos? No. Unless they actually cheat, they aren't black balled.
What is the craziest thing you've seen? I answered this a little further down bud.
Have you ever seen a guy eat his own head? Hasn't happened to date..
Have you seen a live unicorn? Nope, it was dead.
What's the largest sum of money you've seen someone lose in one day? 100K on blackjack.
So you admit that you are a liar? EDIT: I do believe this means you have to forfeit your casino to me. Rules are rules I guess :(
Have you ever seen a queen in her damned undies, as the feller says? Once back in 06.
Last updated: 2012-05-19 15:36 UTC
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